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As if you didn't see this coming....

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Click the link for the full story....

GM, Chrysler seek billions more, to cut more jobs

GM said it could need up to $30 billion from the Treasury Department, up from a previous estimate of $18 billion. That includes $13.4 billion the company has already received. The world's largest automaker said it could run out of money by March without new funds and needs $2 billion next month and another $2.6 billion in April.




Big surprise, eh?
post #2 of 24
Structured/Guided bankruptcy... it was the only way to go to begin with IMO. Giving them money from the beginning was a fucking bad move.
post #3 of 24
let them fail. cars will still be made in the US and automobile union employees will find jobs working for them. In the short term it will hurt (a lot) but it's for the best...
post #4 of 24
Until the auto workers unions wake up and realize they are partly to blame for this mess things won't get any better. GM is a mortgage/healthcare company first, second, third, fourth, fifth and car manufacturer somewhere in the six to eight range.
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Until the auto workers unions wake up and realize they are partly to blame for this mess things won't get any better.
agreed.
an outcome of this whole mess will be far lower wages for union laborers. the middle class will never be the same again.
post #6 of 24
I dont think wages are really the issue. The problem is pensions and healthcare.
post #7 of 24
GM really needs to take a Finance 101 class. Why can't they realize that if they are still losing money, even after a bailout, maybe they are the ones that actually doing something wrong?

Just let the company go bankrupt as anyone else in their place would. If you can't survive in the market, even after billions of aid in money, then maybe you are not up to the task of running the company.

I don't know all the fine details of what's happening here, but I am just getting tired of GM whining every time about losing money...even after they do receive money...

They fail, get money, start cutting jobs, continue failing, and now asking for more money. WTF, any other company in their place would have been bought out by now...

Idk, just sounds like a waste of time helping a company that apparently sucks with money and as a result just asks for more and continues cutting jobs...Just let Toyota Motor Corporation or some other automaker buy them...But still keep jobs/factories here...Just like "new management" or something...

/no research, just "observed" opinion
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by 130_R View Post
Until the auto workers unions wake up and realize they are partly to blame for this mess things won't get any better. GM is a mortgage/healthcare company first, second, third, fourth, fifth and car manufacturer somewhere in the six to eight range.
When in doubt, blame workers and unions. Don't blame the corporate execs who haven't the first idea how to build decent cars, but can throw a party that would shame a Roman emperor.

And don't blame the out-of-touch cretins on the board of directors that throw gobs of money at the corporate guys, simply because they are addicted to their carefree, billion-dollar lifestyle and couldn't care less about their blue-collar employees or even their products.

GM/Chrysler/Ford have been cutting jobs, eliminating whole factories, and generally encroaching on their workers' livelihoods for the past twenty years. Has it helped them? No. Because most of the money they saved went right into the pockets of the higher-ups, rather than being invested into making better products.

GM and Chrysler are a perfect example of why American businesses are ill-equipped to survive in the global business climate: because American businessmen are mostly unconcerned with the health of the companies they run. They are mainly concerned with earning as much money in as short a period of time as they can.

The sad part is that they won't learn. If they get the money they want, they will continue to slash jobs and destroy lives, because their CEOs won't give up their pay or their perks.

When it's all 'over,' and they've slashed all the workers they possibly can, and defaulted on all the pension obligations they possibly can, they'll die along with the towns their factories supported. Because so many fewer people will have jobs, the demand for their inferior products will be almost nil.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by blm14 View Post
I dont think wages are really the issue. The problem is pensions and healthcare.
of course wages are the issue (combined with insurance and pension). US automakers pay so much in hourly wages that they are not profitable. Most union auto workers are makeing $25 to $30 a hour. That's $50,000+ a year to do a job that requires ABSOLUTELY no skill or education.

Think about this: the high school educated (maybe) dude that assembled your car probably made twice as much money last year as the college educated person that teaches your children.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
because American businessmen are mostly unconcerned with the health of the companies they run. They are mainly concerned with earning as much money in as short a period of time as they can.
Very true. Most American-run businesses fail to think long term. CEOs are only concerned about bringing up stock values as much as they can before they cash out and move on to the next company.
post #11 of 24
everybody needs to listen to andrew ross sorkin (and biodiesel): Charlie Rose - Andrew Ross Sorkin on the future of the "Big Three" automakers.. STRUCTURED CHAPTER 11!

also, yes, blame the unions. the most basic theory of economics is supply and demand. uneducated, unskilled workers should not be making $50k a year. they should be paid a market-based wage since wage expense is definitely part of the problem.
post #12 of 24
Agree that auto workers may be overpaid in today's climate. But the automakers paid them those wages and guaranteed them those benefits. And if the cars they made were any good, they would be handling these admittedly huge pension and healthcare costs just fine.

One other factor, in addition to bad products, is that America remains the only major economic power that lacks universal health care. Counting on our industries to pick up the tab for this care is killing our business climate.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Agree that auto workers may be overpaid in today's climate. But the automakers paid them those wages and guaranteed them those benefits. And if the cars they made were any good, they would be handling these admittedly huge pension and healthcare costs just fine.
Yeah, the automakers had to pay those wages because they were forced to by the union. American labor is so expensive because Americans think they are entitled to a decent income.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
When in doubt, blame workers and unions. Don't blame the corporate execs who haven't the first idea how to build decent cars, but can throw a party that would shame a Roman emperor.

And don't blame the out-of-touch cretins on the board of directors that throw gobs of money at the corporate guys, simply because they are addicted to their carefree, billion-dollar lifestyle and couldn't care less about their blue-collar employees or even their products.

GM/Chrysler/Ford have been cutting jobs, eliminating whole factories, and generally encroaching on their workers' livelihoods for the past twenty years. Has it helped them? No. Because most of the money they saved went right into the pockets of the higher-ups, rather than being invested into making better products.

GM and Chrysler are a perfect example of why American businesses are ill-equipped to survive in the global business climate: because American businessmen are mostly unconcerned with the health of the companies they run. They are mainly concerned with earning as much money in as short a period of time as they can.

The sad part is that they won't learn. If they get the money they want, they will continue to slash jobs and destroy lives, because their CEOs won't give up their pay or their perks.

When it's all 'over,' and they've slashed all the workers they possibly can, and defaulted on all the pension obligations they possibly can, they'll die along with the towns their factories supported. Because so many fewer people will have jobs, the demand for their inferior products will be almost nil.
The unions cannot go blameless in all of this, in order for GM/Ford/Chrysler to survive it is going to take sacrifices at all levels. Many times over the last 15 years the demand for cars has forced auto makers to make unrealistic long term concessions to unions over things like healthcare and pensions.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdg1976 View Post
Yeah, the automakers had to pay those wages because they were forced to by the union. American labor is so expensive because Americans think they are entitled to a decent income.
Back in the 1980's God, I mean President Reagan, showed us how to break a strike. GM et al could have done it if they had the stones, right? Blaming unions is fun and convenient but it doesn't cover even half the blame for the situation.
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Agree that auto workers may be overpaid in today's climate. But the automakers paid them those wages and guaranteed them those benefits. And if the cars they made were any good, they would be handling these admittedly huge pension and healthcare costs just fine.

One other factor, in addition to bad products, is that America remains the only major economic power that lacks universal health care. Counting on our industries to pick up the tab for this care is killing our business climate.
You aren't seriously suggesting we have government healthcare for all are you?
post #17 of 24
Yeah, I am. It's immoral in my opinion that the most powerful country in the world, whose GDP dwarfs all others, doesn't provide for the health of its citizens.

Every single other major economic power has universal healthcare. And their car companies are kicking our companies' butts, because they don't have to pay their employees' medical costs.

It may seem like communism to you, but I suspect your tune might change if you found yourself out of work for a year and unable to afford decent healthcare.

The united states is going to have to drastically reform itself if it is going to stay competitive with the rest of the world. This is but one step of many that will have to be made. We can't have our workers being subject to so much insecurity during distressing times.

Blaming workers is fun, but we need those people to thrive if America is to thrive. When rich people are the only ones who can afford to buy big-ticket items, the economy will contract in a big way and crime will skyrocket. If you want to see the consequences of this, go to Latin American countries like Colombia, where anyone with any money travels with an armed escort and lives in a compound. Not a good time.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Back in the 1980's God, I mean President Reagan, showed us how to break a strike. GM et al could have done it if they had the stones, right? Blaming unions is fun and convenient but it doesn't cover even half the blame for the situation.
Something I found interesting about Unions....

YouTube - Unions Destroying American Economy. Non-Union (Right-to-Work) States better Economys
post #19 of 24
I am posting from my phone, but I promise to check that out when I get to my computer.

I do think that unions in today's workplace can do as much harm as they do good. But what if they no longer existed? What if they had never existed? I shudder to think at the answers.

Debating the relevance of unions always comes down to the free market thing. Free markets are best, goes the theory, so they should determine labor rates too.

Obviously the free market philosophy has taken a good beating as wall street has failed to deliver, despite widespread financial deregulation. I have given up on the idea that the welfare of this country should be left in the hands of those who will profit from compromising it.
post #20 of 24
Unions are the kiss of death for companies, especially the smaller ones imo. They have been a contributing factor for so many of the factories shutting down in my area. I remember back in the late 80's workers picketing outside of Alcoa because making 20+ dollars was not enough for them. I knew it was just a matter of time before they closed the doors. They unionize a company and in a matter of a few years they shut down or ship out to Mexico. I would be very leary of my future if I were working for a company that brought in a union.
post #21 of 24
I just wanted to add that I am not saying the Union is the reason for GM being in the shape they are in. They brought it on themselves with greed and subpar quality.
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
I am posting from my phone, but I promise to check that out when I get to my computer.

I do think that unions in today's workplace can do as much harm as they do good. But what if they no longer existed? What if they had never existed? I shudder to think at the answers.

Debating the relevance of unions always comes down to the free market thing. Free markets are best, goes the theory, so they should determine labor rates too.

Obviously the free market philosophy has taken a good beating as wall street has failed to deliver, despite widespread financial deregulation. I have given up on the idea that the welfare of this country should be left in the hands of those who will profit from compromising it.
You do realize that throughout the 1900's unions were by and large run by corrupt individuals that either wanted to be int eh mob or were the mob.

Unions, helping organized crime become millionaires!
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorzgirl View Post
I just wanted to add that I am not saying the Union is the reason for GM being in the shape they are in. They brought it on themselves with greed and subpar quality.
Yes! The point is that in order for the auto companies to survive there will have to be sacrifices at all levels; shareholders, management, unionized workers.

Insulating one from the other two no matter the combination will result in only a temporary fix and not an actual restructuring of the current broken system.
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Yeah, I am. It's immoral in my opinion that the most powerful country in the world, whose GDP dwarfs all others, doesn't provide for the health of its citizens.

Every single other major economic power has universal healthcare. And their car companies are kicking our companies' butts, because they don't have to pay their employees' medical costs.

It may seem like communism to you, but I suspect your tune might change if you found yourself out of work for a year and unable to afford decent healthcare.

The united states is going to have to drastically reform itself if it is going to stay competitive with the rest of the world. This is but one step of many that will have to be made. We can't have our workers being subject to so much insecurity during distressing times.

Blaming workers is fun, but we need those people to thrive if America is to thrive. When rich people are the only ones who can afford to buy big-ticket items, the economy will contract in a big way and crime will skyrocket. If you want to see the consequences of this, go to Latin American countries like Colombia, where anyone with any money travels with an armed escort and lives in a compound. Not a good time.

If I was out of work for a year I wouldn't be able to afford anything. Government run anything always seems like a bad idea to me

I know people who work $8 an hour jobs and get healthcare....

And just because foreign car companies are kicking our car companies butts, that has little to do with healthcare IMO. There are a few companies that flourish in the US that pay for healthcare and are leaders in their industry...
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