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paypal dispute help

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
hm so i sold a pair of jeans on ebay and a buyer from korea bought them. he requested express mail/tracking the whole works and i told him i didnt want to deal with international but didnt want to give him tracking/express as it costs too much. so i shipped it out w/o tracking and he keeps asking me for the usps # label on the receipt. what does that do?

anyways, he just opened up a dispute saying he never received his jeans. whats a way of winning this dispute quickly?
post #2 of 31
do you have any form of evidence you shipped it?
post #3 of 31
Do You have a signed-for service? i.e. does the recipient have to sign upon recieving his package? And do You get a notification about that?

If not it is very unlikely to win a PayPal dispute, even if You have evidence that You shipped something out.
If yes then You are winning the dispute if You have that evidence. Or You will have to make a claim against the postal service.
post #4 of 31
Does he realize that it may take anywhere from 3-4 weeks for international items to arrive? Also was his address confirmed?

I'd pull all my money out of my paypal account either way.
post #5 of 31
Watch out with this kind of dispute, you could quickly be in deep sh***. Paypal protects easely the buyer but not the seller, the buyer can put you in serious trouble if you don't give pieces of evidence FAST!!!

Scams with disputes on paypal are very easy to win for the buyer if the seller doesn't know what to do. Paypal would take you the money back even if you already transfered it, getting a negative paypal account...

I read a case on a french forum a few months ago.
post #6 of 31
Saddock, Your are wrong about paypal being able to get his money back. Do what CEZ says, take your money out of your account right now and transfer it to your checking or savings. Paypal CANNOT touch it once it is transferred out of their system, it would be highly illegial for them to go into your bank account and take back the money. Since a dispute is open, the ONLY way paypal can get him back his money is if you still have it within paypals system, if its transfered out then tough sh*t to the buyer. I know it sounds bad but some people dont realize how little protection paypal actually offeres.
post #7 of 31
The captain is right. If Your PayPal account is empty, then there is nothing PayPal can do.

I guess that is the reason why it takes up to 7 days to transfer money out of an PayPal account. It gives them some time if things go wrong for them.

If it is still possible to empty Your account (PayPal sometimes freezes accounts in a dispute) do it right now. It may be enough time for the money to transfer to Your bank account, before the dispute is closed by the buyer.
post #8 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonWitzleben View Post
The captain is right. If Your PayPal account is empty, then there is nothing PayPal can do.
Wrong!! they can put you paypal account negative...the don't take back the money from your bank account directly (it's obvious) but they take it from your paypal account.

Then, it will be your problem to bring it back positive.

They can also freeze your paypal account during the dispute until it's resolved preventing you from closing your account.

Scammers do that, they receive the payment, transfer the money and close the account immediately before you had the time to do anything.
post #9 of 31
So if things come down to it, id happily close my paypal account rather than lose 200$ for something I shipped out.
post #10 of 31
^exactly...Benny take your money out IMMEDIATELY! ALSO ALWAYS SHIP WITH TRACKING SO YOU ARE PROTECTED OR ELSE YOU CAN GET FUCKED...

Paypal is a huge piece of shit that doesn't protect buyer's nor sellers...if you get fucked as a buyer they won't help you get your money back if the seller has nothing in their account...paypal will in NO MEANS EVER PAY YOU THEMSELVES...under 0 circumstance...
post #11 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddock View Post
Wrong!! they can put you paypal account negative...the don't take back the money from your bank account directly (it's obvious) but they take it from your paypal account.

Then, it will be your problem to bring it back positive.

They can also freeze your paypal account during the dispute until it's resolved preventing you from closing your account.

Scammers do that, they receive the payment, transfer the money and close the account immediately before you had the time to do anything.
Yep Yep... If Paypal resolve the dispute in favour of the buyer then they'll put your account into a negative balance. If you then leave it "overdrawn" they start getting nasty.
post #12 of 31
I do not agree. But I dont experienced it myself. So this is not 100%

Only way one can get back money from an empty PayPal account is, if one paid with a credit-card. Then it is possible to do a credit-card charge-back, even if there is no money in the PayPal account.

This might be what Saddock is referring to.
post #13 of 31
if you filled out a customs form which you must have you can atleast submit that and id suggest going to the post office and having them print out the info with the tracking number and send it to the buyer so maybe he'll see you atleast shipped it out...

paypal sucks i always get screwed
post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by billbonesknows View Post
^exactly...Benny take your money out IMMEDIATELY! ALSO ALWAYS SHIP WITH TRACKING SO YOU ARE PROTECTED OR ELSE YOU CAN GET FUCKED...

Paypal is a huge piece of shit that doesn't protect buyer's nor sellers...if you get fucked as a buyer they won't help you get your money back if the seller has nothing in their account...paypal will in NO MEANS EVER PAY YOU THEMSELVES...under 0 circumstance...
I agree with Bill, I've never shipped anything to anyone w/o tracking. I'd rather have a neg Paypal account than have neg Bank account.

Here are some tips from a pro ( Treasurehoard)

eBay Guides - How to win a Paypal dispute for Buyers and Sellers

Sellers:

Ok, first thing I am going to tell you is it’s basically impossible to win a Paypal dispute against a buyer if:
  1. You don't have a qualified Verified Business or Premier Account
  2. You ship to an unconfirmed address
  3. You ship without tracking (Print shipping labels online with USPS and receive free tracking)
  4. You ship without signature receipt on items $250 or greater
You don’t follow these 4 steps and you have no chance whatsoever. Consider your item and money history! Maybe you’ll get away with it for 1 or even 100 sales but it only takes 1 chargeback from a buyer of a $200 item to teach you a valuable lesson. I had almost 800 sales before a buyer using a stolen credit card ripped me off. It was only $30 but sometimes I am selling comics for a few grand! Just imagine getting ripped off for $1000. THAT’S GOTTA SUCK!!!
Here are 3 more rules that I use to reduce the risk of Paypal disputes:
  1. Describing your item honestly and provide clear photos showing the item and condition.
  2. Shipping with in a reasonable amount of time. Paypal defines this as 7 days from the date payment was received.
  3. Insure the item against loss and damages.
#1 Rule of Paypal for me is drain all the money I don’t need in there. If you leave your money sitting around and Paypal flags the account your entire account can be frozen. People have lost a lot of money this way. It has wrecked people’s businesses and lives. Make sure you take your money out on a regular basis! If you haven't already you should really read the Paypal User Agreement now to avoid this sort of hassle.
So, go to Paypal right now and set up your account to a business or premier account. It’s simple to do and it is now mandatory to have an account that accepts all forms of Paypal payment if you accept Paypal on an eBay item.

Next go to My Accounts Profile -> Selling Preferences -> Payment Receiving Preferences. Select the option “Block payments from U.S. users who DO NOT provide a Confirmed Address.” This deals with all the U.S. buyers who don’t have a confirmed address. In fact it will even walk them through confirming their address, which any honest buyer will do. From this point you can also block all international payments too.
This is because both Canadian and UK buyers can confirm their accounts. I do let other international buyers know that I don’t accept Paypal from unconfirmed addresses in my auctions. If they are honest buyers it’s not a problem for them to get a money order, cashiers check, or use their credit card with Bidpay.
All the major shippers offer tracking and signature confirmation. I also highly recommend insurance. It’s the seller’s responsibility to make sure the buyer gets the item. If you ship without insurance and the tracking says the buyer didn’t receive the item, and they file a dispute, you will lose. If the postal workers doesn’t scan your delivery confirmation slip when the package is delivered then you will lose an item not received dispute.
So you followed all those steps and now a buyer files a dispute against you and escalates it to a claim. You now have to respond to Paypal. The seller has 10 days to respond to the buyer’s dispute. If you DO NOT respond you lose automatically.
You have 3 options:
  1. agree
  2. resolve
  3. disagree.
Unless you are at fault choose disagree. If you are at fault you shouldn’t be trying to win a dispute against the buyer, because I can guarantee you have no chance of winning against any buyer who knows how to win a dispute. Paypal always sides with the buyer as long as the buyer gives them information proving their claim.
You have the option to give the buyer a partial refund at this point. In most cases you do not want to do this. There are some buyers who are con-artists. They file disputes just to get a partial refund on items. Basically they have no problem with the item they just want to save more money and find it easy since many sellers will just cave into a partial refund just to get Paypal to release the hold they place on their money.
If the buyer has a legitimate reason to ask for a partial refund you might want to consider it. For example a button is missing that you didn’t notice so the buyer wants to replace the button and keep the jeans. Just cover the cost of the repair and the buyer will be happy.
Now you need to provide Paypal with details of your transaction including tracking, signature confirmation and anything else. Any info you can provide to disagree with the buyer’s claim is helpful right now. Photos of an item that is undamaged, certificates of authentication, anything that you think will be in your favor. If you can’t provide the details, you lose.
At this point a Paypal Dispute Resolution Specialist is assigned to your case. The specialist will request information from the buyer. Usually this involves an expert in the field of whatever item the dispute is about. If the buyer can’t provide the information with in a certain number of days then you will win the dispute.
As long as the buyer has a reasonable claim and can provide information backing it up chances are you will lose. So if you sold them a fake pair of jeans or a comic book that is in Fine condition that you said was in Mint, you are screwed. You have no chance to win unless the buyer gives up. Which if the buyer is anything like me and pinches all his pennies, you are in big trouble!
If the buyer wins they must now ship the item back to you in the condition received. At this point you should have some photos of your item ready just incase they try to pull a fast one. Like swapping your comic that was in great condition for one that is all torn up, or a fake pair of jeans for your real ones. If this happens, immediately contact Paypal. Take photos of the new item and get ready for a huge drama.
Now I know maybe this didn’t help you much as a seller because you are now thinking it’s impossible to win. Well no its not. The way a seller wins disputes is not by trying to fight the buyer after the fact. Sellers win through prevention. If you follow all the steps listed above and are selling quality items you don’t have anything to worry about in the first place. Except those occasional crazy buyers who want to try and tell you the item they received is a different color than you described and they want a $3 partical refund! Ask them what color it is and they might say something like no color. To which you might respond so its invisible.
That concludes this lesson. Class dismissed.
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Idalis62:
IDALIS62 AUCTIONS!!!
Treasurehoard:
TREASUREHOARD AUCTIONS!!!
post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 
ahhaha i was transferring my money out already before i got the dispute. good to hear
post #16 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonWitzleben View Post
I do not agree. But I dont experienced it myself. So this is not 100%

Only way one can get back money from an empty PayPal account is, if one paid with a credit-card. Then it is possible to do a credit-card charge-back, even if there is no money in the PayPal account.

This might be what Saddock is referring to.
I just went through this whole process with paypal. I paid someone using my creditcard through paypal. The buyer must have been a total fuckhead to think he could get anyway with a legit payment. Anyway after a while and no responses I filed a complaint, and just this monday I got an email from paypal saying that they found the other party to be at fault, mostly cause he never responded to paypal, but they could not recover any of my money.
Great, how worthless is paypal; so I call my credit card and explain what happened and they were more than happy to help.
Moral of the story, if you think its fishy use your credit card, if things go wrong your CC company could give a shit if its paypal or not, to them its a business that took your money and didnt return any goods, and they will gladly do a chargeback on your CC
post #17 of 31
benny,

does paypal have your social? they now require premium accounts to supply a ssn if you want to withdraw more than 500 a month. if they have your social then you're gonna go through a lot of pain. they will close the account after you dispute and report it the credit bureau.
post #18 of 31
Thread Starter 
i dont have a premium account thank god. thanks for the heads up dude
post #19 of 31
Always ship w/ tracking and insurance. Make the buyer pay for it. Its the sellers responsibility to make sure the package arrives. If you don't have tracking and get an item not received dispute you have no chance of winning.

Also if you want to use your account again you are going to need to put money in to cover the negative balance. Many times if you are in the middle of a withdrawal paypal can and will reverse it and hold your money. Any money you get in the account when it is negative will be held. If they don't like you then you will wind up with a parting notice which means you don't get to use paypal anymore. Any money in the account at that point can be held for up to 180 days at which time it is returned to you and you are banned from paypal forever. I also read on several sites that paypal has taken people to collection agencies but I haven't seen any evidence of this and my paypal rep won't confirm or deny it.
post #20 of 31
I read on sites that they can collect and ruin your credit. On top of being banned as mentioned from paypal AND ebay.

if you didn't ship with tracking, you really are screwed. Doesn't pay to skimp out on paying $$$ for trackable shipping.

As for the buyer, if your funds aren't available I read paypal will send him a letter saying he won but also saying that they can't recover the funds and will continue to try to collect them from the seller (assuming he sent via e-check or paid with paypal account credit/debit.) If he used a CC he will likely get reimbursed from the company or paypal up to the buyer protection eligibility.

so basically hope the guy comes clean or be prepared to suck it up.
post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by treasurehoard View Post
and you are banned from paypal forever. I also read on several sites that paypal has taken people to collection agencies but I haven't seen any evidence of this and my paypal rep won't confirm or deny it.
it happened to me because i disputed on a pair of diesel that never arrived (paid for the insurance but the guy didn't get it at USPS). paypal took me to the collection but since they didn't have my social they couldn't do anything to me. the collection agency just keeps on sending me letters asking me to settle.
post #22 of 31
if jeans never arrived and the guy didn't have tracking, it's an open and shut case in your favor, why would they take you to collections...?
post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sehnsucht View Post
if jeans never arrived and the guy didn't have tracking, it's an open and shut case in your favor, why would they take you to collections...?
the guy did have tracking and it's showing delivered. if he had purchased the insurance then they would not have left the jeans at the porch (they'd need someone to sign for it).
post #24 of 31
Thread Starter 
where is the label number located on the receipt?
post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace51 View Post
the guy did have tracking and it's showing delivered. if he had purchased the insurance then they would not have left the jeans at the porch (they'd need someone to sign for it).
only with signature confirmation or express shipping would they require a sig I believe.

depends on the shipper if it's UPS they will leave it regardless unless your address is flagged with for INR insurance claims in the past. Depends on how lazy the workers are too. Sometimes UPS does a drop and run, other times they leave notices. Not sure if there is any reason behind it or it's just random from delivery to delivery.


it's safer to not do a signature because sometimes those show 'notice left' which will screw the seller even if they pick it up from the PO. As opposed to DC which just shows delivered to the zip which is all paypal needs to side with the seller.

Did you do a chargeback or something? How did you recover your funds from paypal?
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