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post #51 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malencontreux View Post
Do you realize how many times a gun would be pulled on someone because some one thought they were being followed if everyone was allowed to have guns? I don't know if you're in college but this would scare the fuck out of me -- if I'm walking home from a party and some girl in front of me is drunk OR sober at night and decides to pull a gun on me I would freak.

Yes, what happened to her was bad. But come on, like said above, if she couldn't reach for her phone. She wouldn't be able to reach for her gun. And I'm going to get hella negged for this -- but I'd rather have one poor victim raped for 19 hours versus random people walking around me with guns in their bag that can be pulled at any time. Yes, get a gun if you want to protect yourself -- just stay the hell away from me, and I'll take my chances. All I have to worry about here is maybe a stabbing and a gun or two... rather not have to worry about if a fight breaks out a party, some drunk girl decides to pull out her gun because of something her boyfriend did and it turns into some "crime" of passion that takes out half the dance floor along with the guy.
I suppose I should have added that in order to have the right to conceal a weapon you would also know how and when to use one. I would imagine that if this law or one like it were passed that there would be laws regarding the use of said concealed weapon. Think like getting a drivers license, being trained as a police officer would be by a professional. I don't advocate going out and getting a gun without knowing how, and WHEN to use one. I assumed the intelligent person would think this way.

Think with this data, any Joe Schmoe criminal has a weapon, you don't. Joe Schmoe knows you most liekly do NOT have a gun. Lots more seemingly innocent people look like bigger targets and victims. Take away your right to protect yourself and what do you have? A lot of innocent people having violent crimes committed aginst them. You are a man so you don't think the way a woman does. You are far less a victim to crazy men such as the one who violated that woman. But to a woman, this is her biggest fear, being violated by a crazy pig like that guy.

The cell phone was in her hand, if I read correctly in one of the many articles I read about this crime. She did not have time to dial. She would have if he hesitated thinking she might be armed.

I own a gun and I know how to use it. I just commented based on my own experience. There was a time when my gun came in very handy and not a sinle person was hurt. Yes I am college educated and probably old enough to be your mother.
post #52 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorPOOHbaby View Post
I suppose I should have added that in order to have the right to conceal a weapon you would also know how and when to use one. I would imagine that if this law or one like it were passed that there would be laws regarding the use of said concealed weapon. Think like getting a drivers license, being trained as a police officer would be by a professional. I don't advocate going out and getting a gun without knowing how, and WHEN to use one. I assumed the intelligent person would think this way.

Think with this data, any Joe Schmoe criminal has a weapon, you don't. Joe Schmoe knows you most liekly do NOT have a gun. Lots more seemingly innocent people look like bigger targets and victims. Take away your right to protect yourself and what do you have? A lot of innocent people having violent crimes committed aginst them. You are a man so you don't think the way a woman does. You are far less a victim to crazy men such as the one who violated that woman. But to a woman, this is her biggest fear, being violated by a crazy pig like that guy.

The cell phone was in her hand, if I read correctly in one of the many articles I read about this crime. She did not have time to dial. She would have if he hesitated thinking she might be armed.

I own a gun and I know how to use it. I just commented based on my own experience. There was a time when my gun came in very handy and not a sinle person was hurt. Yes I am college educated and probably old enough to be your mother.
1. I am a gay man. I do think like a lot of women when it comes to certain things, especially when it comes to situations like this. My girlfriends feel more comfortable walking around in the dark than I do.

2. I wasn't calling you stupid by implying you weren't college educated. I just see a very common scenario that could possibly happen if people were running around with concealed weapons. I'd be sketched out if I was at a party and I knew there were a bunch of drunk women on the dance floor with handguns in their coach wristlets because they have to walk home later and are afraid they might get raped.

3. Yes, you have to take classes and need to be trained to own a gun. You used the analogy of having a driving license and being trained, that being said -- how many people break the law on a daily basis with their drivings license. Fuck, some people shouldn't even have a license. That being said, get a few shots of liquor into a someone and their judgement is impaired, just like with driving... and when it's appropriate to use a gun.

I'll take my chances with a criminal, I may live to regret saying this but as of right now, this is what I think. The amount of severe crimes like this happening compared to how many people are living in the states -- I think it's relatively low. Also, like 3demon said -- people need to learn self-defense techniques without going to a firearm. People also just need to employ a little common sense -- I've done it a few times to avoid a sticky and possibly soon-to-be violent situations. She could've knocked on someone's door like you suggested, that's what I would've done. Just a few days earlier, when I was moving stuff into my new home and there were a bunch of homeless guys hanging around, I yelled back into the backyard "Hey guys, I'll be back with some more stuff. I'll need your help with setting up the desk and stuff!" so that those people would think there were people in the house/backyard so they would probably be a lot more hesitant to rob me or enter the premises.
post #53 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3demon View Post
why do people think that guns are the only way for self defense?? There are other things that can be done/taught. I think that defaulting to guns is a cop out. Learn self defense techniques that are unarmed!
It seems like a lot of these violent encounters happen at close range anyways.
If the typical response to this is 'what if they have a gun' then you will begin to see where pro-legislation people are coming from

So are you suggesting a 120 pound woman karate chop a 225 pound man if she is in a life or death situation? 3 grown men are lucky to be able to take down one man who is high on crack,etc.

There are non-lethal bullets if you are afraid of using the real thing.
post #54 of 147
lol i read the whole story, it was like.... drama... just another horror story, except in reality
post #55 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malencontreux View Post
1. I am a gay man. I do think like a lot of women when it comes to certain things, especially when it comes to situations like this. My girlfriends feel more comfortable walking around in the dark than I do.

2. I wasn't calling you stupid by implying you weren't college educated. I just see a very common scenario that could possibly happen if people were running around with concealed weapons. I'd be sketched out if I was at a party and I knew there were a bunch of drunk women on the dance floor with handguns in their coach wristlets because they have to walk home later and are afraid they might get raped.

3. Yes, you have to take classes and need to be trained to own a gun. You used the analogy of having a driving license and being trained, that being said -- how many people break the law on a daily basis with their drivings license. Fuck, some people shouldn't even have a license. That being said, get a few shots of liquor into a someone and their judgement is impaired, just like with driving... and when it's appropriate to use a gun.

I'll take my chances with a criminal, I may live to regret saying this but as of right now, this is what I think. The amount of severe crimes like this happening compared to how many people are living in the states -- I think it's relatively low. Also, like 3demon said -- people need to learn self-defense techniques without going to a firearm. People also just need to employ a little common sense -- I've done it a few times to avoid a sticky and possibly soon-to-be violent situations. She could've knocked on someone's door like you suggested, that's what I would've done. Just a few days earlier, when I was moving stuff into my new home and there were a bunch of homeless guys hanging around, I yelled back into the backyard "Hey guys, I'll be back with some more stuff. I'll need your help with setting up the desk and stuff!" so that those people would think there were people in the house/backyard so they would probably be a lot more hesitant to rob me or enter the premises.
You may think like a woman, but you LOOK like a man. Gay or straight, you are still a man and therefore are far less likely to be targeted by a rapist.

You would be subject to the same laws a criminal would be if they toted a gun to an evening out and pulled it on an innocent stranger. Use some of that "common sense" and think that someone else might be able to use it a well. If you are in a group of women at a bar, how likely are you to be walking home alone?

It's about how and WHEN to use it. With no law in place, random people carry weapons who don't know how to use them. You hear of people pulling weapons, having it taken away and are killed by their own weapon, because they had no idea HOW to use it or were afraid to use it or having it stolen from them and used in another crime, etc. You think with this, and that is great, but that is not what the case would be if there were laws for conceled weapons, which there are, even now. As it is now, even in your own home if you kill an intruder you can be arrested. Law abiding citizens will continue to abide by the law. They will not all of a sudden become vigilanties, waving their gun at every little squirrel that moves. Owning a gun does not make you crazy, suddenly you will think you are Rambo on a mission to kill every person walking at night. If anything it makes you more cautious, at least it does for me.

Listen, I don't want to argue with you, I think it's great that you believe in something one way or another. Kids your age rarely have opinions on things that they have no experience with so you have that going for you. But call me when you are a victim of a violent crime or better yet your Mother is a victim or your sister or your best female friend or your boyfriend or if you ever plan to adopt and one of your children is a victim of a violent crime. I highly doubt your first reaction would be " OMG! How incredibly lucky she was not to be carrying a gun because some innocent bystander could have been hurt." You'll be thinking of all the horrible thing you want to do to the person who did it and wishing she was better prepared to take care of herself.

Self defense is great but I completely agree with Christine, people on drugs have no pain, they are numb, they have no conscience, they have no control. They are by far the worst type of criminal to deal with. They will do anything, take anything, overcome anything. Police with bats, guns and tasers can hardly control them, GROUPS of police have trouble controlling them. I think my 106 pound body would be in some deep shit if I ever tried to Judo kick one of them. I better hope he goes down hard because the beating and god forbid what else I would take after that would be extreme and probably end my life, as I know it anyway.
post #56 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorzgirl View Post
So are you suggesting a 120 pound woman karate chop a 225 pound man if she is in a life or death situation? 3 grown men are lucky to be able to take down one man who is high on crack,etc.

There are non-lethal bullets if you are afraid of using the real thing.
No, I would suggest a little screaming -- some kicking, scratching, eye gauging, ball bustin' moves. One of the best things to do in situations like this is to create a loud enough commotion for people to notice. The guy was mentally ill, he wasn't high on crack ready to take on an army of SWAT personnel.

I don't want to change the subject, but this reminds me of this whole equality thing between men and women. Pick a side, you either can do everything men can do, or you're saying you're the lesser sex. Just because you're 120 pounds going up against a guy does not mean you are some poor defenseless woman that needs to be rescued. (In some situations, help is needed but for the most part -- women don't give themselves enough credit, you have no idea how much a swift kick in the nuts with a pair of stilletos will help in a situation.)
post #57 of 147
my problem with some of the anti gun sentiments in this thread, is that they presume there is always another action to take, or that the owner of the gun wouldnt be responsible. I am not trying to convince those of you that are anti gun to see that their is another side.. but the judgements against me because I am a gun owner are just as ridiculous. Sentiments against americans just picking up guns are also way off base. I actually do know many self defense techinques.. But I am a small 5'3'' 110 pound woman and frankly they aren't always practical.. and any statments in this thread to suggest that my ability to learn self defense techinques alone would be enough are laughable.

mal- you may be right alchohol might cloud one's judgement and cause them to misuse a firearm but you also said the same thing could occur with a car.. I remember one famous crime of passion case where the woman ran over her ex hubby wit the car killing him.. so really good judment and reason should be used when doing anything in life.. driving a car, pulling a gun, one could argue even typing on the internet.


There is plenty of room on HF for people with all opinions in this matter.. but I do feel the anti gun sentiment has been a bit judgemental on those of us that fully support the right to bear arms
post #58 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malencontreux View Post
No, I would suggest a little screaming -- some kicking, scratching, eye gauging, ball bustin' moves. One of the best things to do in situations like this is to create a loud enough commotion for people to notice. The guy was mentally ill, he wasn't high on crack ready to take on an army of SWAT personnel.

I don't want to change the subject, but this reminds me of this whole equality thing between men and women. Pick a side, you either can do everything men can do, or you're saying you're the lesser sex. Just because you're 120 pounds going up against a guy does not mean you are some poor defenseless woman that needs to be rescued. (In some situations, help is needed but for the most part -- women don't give themselves enough credit, you have no idea how much a swift kick in the nuts with a pair of stilletos will help in a situation.)

until you are a 120 pound woman who is put into a situation that is being attacked you shouldnt assume anything mal

the fact remains not one woman on this thread is screaming I am poor and defenseless please come rescue me.. in fact most of the women responding in this thread are ass kicking women..

and if we choose to own a gun so be it.. I hope none of us are in situations like christine where we have to use it..

but dont just assume that a kick in the ball with my high heel will be enough..
post #59 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorPOOHbaby View Post
You may think like a woman, but you LOOK like a man. Gay or straight, you are still a man and therefore are far less likely to be targeted by a rapist.

You would be subject to the same laws a criminal would be if they toted a gun to an evening out and pulled it on an innocent stranger. Use some of that "common sense" and think that someone else might be able to use it a well. If you are in a group of women at a bar, how likely are you to be walking home alone?

It's about how and WHEN to use it. With no law in place, random people carry weapons who don't know how to use them. You hear of people pulling weapons, having it taken away and are killed by their own weapon, because they had no idea HOW to use it or were afraid to use it or having it stolen from them and used in another crime, etc. You think with this, and that is great, but that is not what the case would be if there were laws for conceled weapons, which there are, even now. As it is now, even in your own home if you kill an intruder you can be arrested. Law abiding citizens will continue to abide by the law. They will not all of a sudden become vigilanties, waving their gun at every little squirrel that moves. Owning a gun does not make you crazy, suddenly you will think you are Rambo on a mission to kill every person walking at night. If anything it makes you more cautious, at least it does for me.

Listen, I don't want to argue with you, I think it's great that you believe in something one way or another. Kids your age rarely have opinions on things that they have no experience with so you have that going for you. But call me when you are a victim of a violent crime or better yet your Mother is a victim or your sister or your best female friend or your boyfriend or if you ever plan to adopt and one of your children is a victim of a violent crime. I highly doubt your first reaction would be " OMG! How incredibly lucky she was not to be carrying a gun because some innocent bystander could have been hurt." You'll be thinking of all the horrible thing you want to do to the person who did it and wishing she was better prepared to take care of herself.

Self defense is great but I completely agree with Christine, people on drugs have no pain, they are numb, they have no conscience, they have no control. They are by far the worst type of criminal to deal with. They will do anything, take anything, overcome anything. Police with bats, guns and tasers can hardly control them, GROUPS of police have trouble controlling them. I think my 106 pound body would be in some deep shit if I ever tried to Judo kick one of them. I better hope he goes down hard because the beating and god forbid what else I would take after that would be extreme and probably end my life, as I know it anyway.
I understand what you're saying about law abiding citizens still being law abiding citizens with guns or not. People are people, and mistakes do happen. I'm not saying we should take away your guns, but I would feel more comfortable if the large majority of people around me weren't armed.
post #60 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBellefromSC View Post
until you are a 120 pound woman who is put into a situation that is being attacked you shouldnt assume anything mal

the fact remains not one woman on this thread is screaming I am poor and defenseless please come rescue me.. in fact most of the women responding in this thread are ass kicking women..

and if we choose to own a gun so be it.. I hope none of us are in situations like christine where we have to use it..

but dont just assume that a kick in the ball with my high heel will be enough..
I've had a dance move gone wrong, it involved a linoleum floor with beer on it -- that night, a kick in the balls was enough for me. Thank god she had flats.

And again, I'm not saying you shouldn't arm yourself, or prepare yourself for situations like these. Because of gun legislations laws right now, I'd be more comfortable with pro-active women having concealed weapons. If the issue of gun legislation comes up, and having a concealed weapon is as common as having a car, that would freak me out. But as of right now, it's people who are very well informed seeking a license and I'm worried that it might end up being a 1 day class and some 20 question test like at the DMV.
post #61 of 147
Thread Starter 
Reading through this thread I am starting to see very annoying replies from the women specifically...

Come on, do you realllllllly think that you are that rape-worthy? All of you?

Sorry, that might have came out wrong...But I am being a bit serious. How the hell can you be so open with things like this...as in "Oh yeah, I need a gun just in case I get raped"

Sure I am speaking from a man's point of view, but still it seems rather weird having a "in case of" for being raped...

I don't know...You women should just get a man in your life....Because whether stereotypical or not, you will seem a lot less fragile and "rape-worthy" if you are with a guy...especially if he looks like he can smash someone's face in with one hit.
post #62 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton View Post
Reading through this thread I am starting to see very annoying replies from the women specifically...

Come on, do you realllllllly think that you are that rape-worthy? All of you?

Sorry, that might have came out wrong...But I am being a bit serious. How the hell can you be so open with things like this...as in "Oh yeah, I need a gun just in case I get raped"

Sure I am speaking from a man's point of view, but still it seems rather weird having a "in case of" for being raped...

I don't know...You women should just get a man in your life....Because whether stereotypical or not, you will seem a lot less fragile and "rape-worthy" if you are with a guy...especially if he looks like he can smash someone's face in with one hit.
Just want to quote this before you decide to delete it. Could be one of the worst posts I've ever read here on honestforum.
post #63 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton View Post
Reading through this thread I am starting to see very annoying replies from the women specifically...

Come on, do you realllllllly think that you are that rape-worthy? All of you?

Sorry, that might have came out wrong...But I am being a bit serious. How the hell can you be so open with things like this...as in "Oh yeah, I need a gun just in case I get raped"

Sure I am speaking from a man's point of view, but still it seems rather weird having a "in case of" for being raped...

I don't know...You women should just get a man in your life....Because whether stereotypical or not, you will seem a lot less fragile and "rape-worthy" if you are with a guy...especially if he looks like he can smash someone's face in with one hit.
Rape isn't about how a woman looks it's about control. I've kind of had this question on my mind, talking with some friends -- what would you do if a rapist came up to you and wanted to rape you and you were like "Sure, what position do you want? Just warning you I kind of like it rough... and I moan a lot. Oh and gag me too, that's so hot." What would they do?

As for the rest of your post, don't use being a "man" as an excuse to write such a ridiculous statement.
post #64 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygawtscammed View Post
Just want to quote this before you decide to delete it.
Ouch, you learned my ways...
post #65 of 147
Wow, Anton. Do you think before you type?
post #66 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgoddess View Post
Wow, Anton. Do you think before you type?
Not really.
post #67 of 147
It shows.
post #68 of 147
omg
post #69 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorPOOHbaby View Post
You may think like a woman, but you LOOK like a man. Gay or straight, you are still a man and therefore are far less likely to be targeted by a rapist.
How wrong you are. Male on male rape is the most common form of rape. Besides, whats with this you may think like a woman sh*t? I'm not even gay and thats major offensive. Maybe you don't realize how gay men can be huge targets especially if you live in a city that doesn't have a large gay community. You aren't the token gay guy in a small community you are the token fag. And maybe a gay person doesn't have to worry the same way a woman worries about getting raped, but he is a whole lot more likely to have his head based in just for being gay.

As for male female rape. Most of the instances happen to women under the age of 16, and most rapist happen to be known to the victim. Gang rapes and violent random rape is actually quite rare, but are often front page news due to the rarity and severity of the crime.

And to the idea of taking a class or learning about a gun so you can conceal it.. What kind of rinky dink class do you think they'd have. Some 3 hour crash course? I don't know if you've ever taken any sort of martial arts, but I have. And even with all the years I've trained, I've been in situations where I totally dropped the ball and did nothing the way it should have been done. I can't stress how different things are when you practice in a class compared to the heat of the moment.

I was about 15 minutes away from being in a home invasion a few years ago. As soon as I left my ex-gfs house, 15 minutes later 5 armed guys broke down her door, and tied up her entire family. Beating on her father and brother, pouring boiling water on them to make them "talk", telling my ex, that they were going to kidnap her if her parents didn't pay up. All the while they were brandishing weapons and let the gun off just to show that they ment business. After about a 4 hour ordeal. They left with about 15K in cash, and bout 70K in jewelry. Other than the injuries sustained by my exes father and brother, everybody was OK. And we all thought to ourselves, would a gun have made this situation any different. And each and every one of us came to the same conclusion. My ex and her family would all be dead, if somebody were to have pulled out a gun.
post #70 of 147
post #71 of 147
I can't believe how ignorant some of the arguments are in this thread. You have some people coming in making a really sound argument, and then someone else says something completely ridiculous that goes against what was already put down as ground rules.

Seriously...have you ever taken classes on self defense? Do you really understand what it's like to bout with someone for even just a couple minutes? It is utterly exhausting just to do with someone your size, let alone someone with a muscular advantage (a.k.a.- male on female), or greater size. I'm not saying that men are better than women, but anatomically, they do have the advantage. That cannot be argued. It's science, so don't throw your bull shit "choose a side/lesser sex" garbage at me.

The military teaches hand to hand combat, but it's not so we can incapacitate someone that way...it's to buy that person enough time for his buddies with a weapon to save him. Knowing self defense techniques probably wouldn't have saved this girl anyway. She would have had to injure him badly enough that she could slip past him to the elevator/stairway, get down from the floor she was on, out, and into someone else's home or secure place. She couldn't even reach into her bag without this psycho attacking her. Mental illness or not, he was in enough of his right state of mind to know that it was wrong, and to know the consequences, or he wouldn't have wanted her to gouge her eyes out and tried to set her on fire.

No one said she had to draw down on him, but IMO, if it was common knowledge that the public was allowed to carry a concealed weapon, I don't think criminals would be so eager to commit such violent crimes. If you knew I carried an M-9, and had it very accessible, would you want to follow behind and attack me? I doubt it. This is all my opinion, and obviously, based on the fact that I am experienced with these types of weapons, of sound mind and judgment, and responsible with them. No, some little twit that doesn't know how to use a weapon, or understand WHEN she should use one, or HOW to escalate force properly should NOT have a concealed weapon. However, if she were properly trained on it, and held accountable for her actions, I think we'd see a much lower crime rate.

It is a fact that states with concealed carry laws have seen statistically significant deterrent effects on the numbers of reported murders, rapes, and robberies.
post #72 of 147
(Let me just sliiiiiide between all the arguments )

This story if fucking awful. I'm all for death sentence... but in the same manner the killer did it to his victim. C'mon now, then sickos like this would really get what they deserve.
post #73 of 147
^^ He'll get what he deserves eventually.
post #74 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruel_angel View Post

I was about 15 minutes away from being in a home invasion a few years ago. As soon as I left my ex-gfs house, 15 minutes later 5 armed guys broke down her door, and tied up her entire family. Beating on her father and brother, pouring boiling water on them to make them "talk", telling my ex, that they were going to kidnap her if her parents didn't pay up. All the while they were brandishing weapons and let the gun off just to show that they ment business. After about a 4 hour ordeal. They left with about 15K in cash, and bout 70K in jewelry. Other than the injuries sustained by my exes father and brother, everybody was OK. And we all thought to ourselves, would a gun have made this situation any different. And each and every one of us came to the same conclusion. My ex and her family would all be dead, if somebody were to have pulled out a gun.
Five armed men are much different than one armed man. I think most people are smart enough to figure that out. The rest of your comment was just too ridiculous to even acknowledge, but yeah, pulling a gun in this situation would have been stupid.

As to everyone else in this thread, what kind of fucking people do you know and hang out with that are so stupid that they cannot figure out when its appropriate to use a gun and when its not?

I also have to agree with Constantine. As a regular woman, try going just 1 round of kick boxing or even regular boxing for that matter with a man and see just how much good it will do you. I have done it and was so exhausted I thought my heart was going to explode. One punch with a glove on nearly knocked me out and I could not have imagined having to grapple with the guy.

When anyone here knows of some woman who took down Kimbo Slice with a self defense move give me a call and I will bend down and kiss your ass.
post #75 of 147
i find it interesting that there is a persisting argument that 'if there were more guns criminals wouldnt do as many crimes because they would be scared to.'

I find this hard to believe. Especially in such cases with mentally unstable people like the rapist here, I doubt the threat that a woman could have a gun would have put him off at all. If anything, it may have slightly altered his strategy.

And in the end, I think thats what would happen. I dont think that criminals would be deterred from committing crimes against others for fear of getting shot, I think they would re-asses the way that they would approach people.

In England, has adding more and more surveillance cameras in the city shown to decrease crime? Or have criminals simply found a way around it? Because the idea is that it would deter them.

Constantine is right - a bout with someone in self defense is incredibly difficult, especially if they have the height/weight advantage - the average woman fighting the average man will show this difference I think.
I just dont see how we can conclude that guns would change that at all! Despite the odds, it would be better to be SLIGHTLY trained as opposed to untrained!

If you are suggesting that a gun could have helped this woman or women in similar situations, arent you suggesting that her mode of engagement with any unfamiliar man should be to pull out the piece ?(regardless of whether or not she shoots it)
What kind of a society are we suggesting here?? One where we whip out the gun whenever we feel uneasy? Because by the time she realized he was attacking her he was in too close and it was far too late
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