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Thank God I live in America - Page 2

post #26 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_a_virus.exe View Post
i don't either, but whenever i read something like this, i always immediately ask if i'm getting the whole story. something like this is so EASY to spin in any angle, depending on what you leave out and how you present the story. that's what propaganda is - not necessarily false, but cleverly advertised. in fact, advertisement can be likened to legal propaganda lol.
Honey, under this description that is pretty much the American media, is it not?
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post #27 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by callire View Post
I'm not saying that Iran is perfect, or anything to that degree. It just pisses me off when people pull these sensationalized articles (which may or may not have actual merit) and try to simplify the conflict in the Middle East by going "Oh, what a horrible country, look how stupid and barbaric they are... GO USA!!" Basing your entire opinion on news articles designed to sell (by using shocking situation and gruesome details, exploiting our own stereotypes), there is no way that you can fully understand the conflict or merit of a country and reduce it to, "Wow, I'm glad I don't live there."

Of course, I know that these situations do exist, and that they are wrong, but I don't agree with the way that they are portrayed and interpreted by the general population. How many of you guys have read the translated Koran, or tried to look at cultural patterns to see another perspective of the bombings? Not many. It's easier to read biased articles from fox about them "damn Arab terrorists."

Has anyone else noticed how the US likes to handle this issue in general? Line up all the past Newsweeks and Times magazine and you'll notice that every single one usually has one particular person on it. Instead of trying to interpret and understand the issue as a whole it's a hell of a lot easier to target one particular person and demonize them to the point where they embody the conflict.

Ethnocentrism, anyone?

I am sorry you took my original post this way, but I don't understand what it had to do with the conflict. I am glad I don't live there or any other Muslim based government, and there are lots of other countries where I am glad I don't live. That was my only point in posting. About the war, I don't want to get into it. Again, this kind of story isn't all that out there with that society.

That being said, I don't believe I have the right to go over there and force them to live according to my beliefs, and vice-versa. I don't believe I have the right or 'the calling' to enforce my beliefs on anyone.
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post #28 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUTUP View Post
You got good points Tim, but we arent making blanket statements about the nation, just the state of some of its laws and justice system.

And comparing Fox or other news stations to the KKK is ridiculous and over the top. Its like when anti bush people compare him to Adolf Hitler.

I am guessing thats why the liberal idiot comment was made.
whether criticizing the nation or the government, i still think the point of my criticism is as pertinent.

i really don't follow politics, not because i'm apathetic, but because i give up on listening to two exceedingly biased sides all the time. i'm against parties...i think our leaders should be judged by their individual merits, not by their political affiliations. so i don't follow the correlation people make with bush and hitler, but as long as it's not based on some logical fallacy, i'm gonna guess the hyperbole was the intended effect - to really highlight the point, rather than to make a parallel comparison.
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post #29 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenics View Post
Honey, under this description that is pretty much the American media, is it not?
and your point, miss shue?
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post #30 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruel_angel View Post
Fox news?? I may as well get my information on the blacks and jews from the KKK.
Did you know that the democratic party has a former KKK member in it?
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post #31 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_a_virus.exe View Post
and your point, miss shue?
you get my point babe.

One of my wishes for fantasyland, would be to have a news source that gave the whole entire story, ALL facts included. But as Man is doing the reporting, this will never happen.
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post #32 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:45pm
^ Ooh, are we now spitting out useless and random factiods aimed to poke holes in our ever-so-perfect democracy?

I'll go!

-The Bible supports slavery, stoning, and the existance of the unicorn!
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post #33 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenics View Post
you get my point babe.

One of my wishes for fantasyland, would be to have a news source that gave the whole entire story, ALL facts included. But as Man is reporting this will never happen.
what

if i did, i wouldn't be asking!

i had to ask, because i didn't think you'd be trying to bring up a point that really doesn't prove anything, so i gave you opportunity to explain yourself. which you skirted. boo.
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post #34 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by callire View Post
I'm not saying that Iran is perfect, or anything to that degree. It just pisses me off when people pull these sensationalized articles (which may or may not have actual merit) and try to simplify the conflict in the Middle East by going "Oh, what a horrible country, look how stupid and barbaric they are... GO USA!!" Basing your entire opinion on news articles designed to sell (by using shocking situation and gruesome details, exploiting our own stereotypes), there is no way that you can fully understand the conflict or merit of a country and reduce it to, "Wow, I'm glad I don't live there."

Of course, I know that these situations do exist, and that they are wrong, but I don't agree with the way that they are portrayed and interpreted by the general population. How many of you guys have read the translated Koran, or tried to look at cultural patterns to see another perspective of the bombings? Not many. It's easier to read biased articles from fox about them "damn Arab terrorists."

Has anyone else noticed how the US likes to handle this issue in general? Line up all the past Newsweeks and Times magazine and you'll notice that every single one usually has one particular person on it. Instead of trying to interpret and understand the issue as a whole it's a hell of a lot easier to target one particular person and demonize them to the point where they embody the conflict.

Ethnocentrism, anyone?
Great points and very well worded. I agree a distinction has to be made from followers of the Quran, and extremists

Religion in Iraq ( towards the poor) is used to put hope and faith into people who have next to nothing left, and then that is used as a tool to recruit these members who have nothing to loose.

The very fact that terrorists use a tool that is meant to have people live a peacefull and freindly way of life, to form hatred and disgust is evil in my eyes.

They use literal translations to warp and twist peoples minds, and when there is no one else left to blame for the state of their country, the blame falls on an easy target, the USA

The Quran ( like the bible) was meant to be a teaching tool, and establish guidlines for proper living. But it can be translated so many ways that it makes for easy manipulation. Especialy amnong poor an uneducated people.
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post #35 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sultrysiren View Post
Did you know that the democratic party has a former KKK member in it?

So does the Republican party. Both parties contain people who have done immoral things, so its useless trying to say such and such Democrat/Republican is a former drug user, adulterer, drunk driver, racist, etc., when there is always someone in your own party who has done the same or worse. That guy was a KKK member in the 20s and 30s - NOT that its right, but I don't think Republicans would make such a big deal about it if it was one of their own.
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post #36 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:49pm
KKK = krazy kat klub? confirm/deny


p.s. if so, i'd like to apply for membership, begret
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post #37 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUTUP View Post
Great points and very well worded. I agree a distinction has to be made from followers of the Quran, and extremists

Religion in Iraq ( towards the poor) is used to put hope and faith into people who have next to nothing left, and then that is used as a tool to recruit these members who have nothing to loose.

The very fact that terrorists use a tool that is meant to have people live a peacefull and freindly way of life, to form hatred and disgust is evil in my eyes.

They use literal translations to warp and twist peoples minds, and when there is no one else left to blame for the state of their country, the blame falls on an easy target, the USA

The Quran ( like the bible) was meant to be a teaching tool, and establish guidlines for proper living. But it can be translated so many ways that it makes for easy manipulation. Especialy amnong poor an uneducated people.

^ Agree.

Let's also keep in mind that historically, Muslims and the spread of Islam has been MUCH more tolerant than Christianity (remember those pesky crusades?).
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post #38 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by callire View Post
^ Agree.

Let's also keep in mind that historically, Muslims and the spread of Islam has been MUCH more tolerant than Christianity (remember those pesky crusades?).
Very true

It wasnt that long ago that people where being burned at the stake.

And lets not forget what happened to the Indians, Africans, ect who refused to embrace Christianity. They where reffered to as " heathens"
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post #39 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:57pm
and just for the record, i personally would not want to live under an iranian government too. i just don't think that report is a very good example to use to explain why.
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post #40 of 307
4/15/07 at 4:57pm
Even if they did, they were still "heathens." It was one of many ways that slavery was justified by "good christian" Europeans.
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post #41 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:00pm
Callire is really smart and thoughtful. I sincerely mean that. Now for that kat . Both

avatar and virus will love this!
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post #42 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_a_virus.exe View Post
what

if i did, i wouldn't be asking!

i had to ask, because i didn't think you'd be trying to bring up a point that really doesn't prove anything, so i gave you opportunity to explain yourself. which you skirted. boo.
my humble apologies, I thought you were being facetious with me

Quote:

i don't either, but whenever i read something like this, i always immediately ask if i'm getting the whole story. something like this is so EASY to spin in any angle, depending on what you leave out and how you present the story. that's what propaganda is - not necessarily false, but cleverly advertised. in fact, advertisement can be likened to legal propaganda lol.
I think a lot of stories are cleverly told, not all the facts given to us. You can hardly believe our news or political campaigns because they never tell you the whole story. We shouldn't vote for Mr. Smith because he voted down 'funding for abandaned babies', but don't tell you there was several attachments to the bill for anything from spray painting every building pink, or breeding red colored grass. (this is example only of course, I hope)

You are right, in that we never know the whole story, again I agree. On this story, from friends and college instructors, this story does not surprise me. I would be surprised if it was completely fabricated.

There is a story out of Tulsa OK right now, where a mob of people attacked the local police while they were negotiating with a man holed up in an evacuated apartment building, who happend to be accused of murder. The MOB threw rocks and SHOT at the police. That is literally all that is being reported. I want to know who made up that mob, why were they against the police, were they trying to protect the man accused of murder, what part of town was it in. How often are police blatantly attacked for doing their job? I am just impressed they didn't shoot back. ( I know Tulsa fairly well, and have a really good idea what part of town this happened in.)

My point was no matter what media outlet, we have to ask questions and try to get the perspective in every story. There are just some perspectives I tend to trust sooner than others.
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post #43 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:05pm
I'm glad I don't live in America.
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post #44 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetta_07 View Post
So does the Republican party. Both parties contain people who have done immoral things, so its useless trying to say such and such Democrat/Republican is a former drug user, adulterer, drunk driver, racist, etc., when there is always someone in your own party who has done the same or worse. That guy was a KKK member in the 20s and 30s - NOT that its right, but I don't think Republicans would make such a big deal about it if it was one of their own.
Who is the republican that is still serving in the house or senate that is or was a KKK member? I would like to know because that person need to go.

I agree that the republicans most likely would not make a big deal out of it if it was one of their own. The media blows up what it wants to though and it is not in their best interest to say that Robert Byrd was a clan member up until the 1940s.
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post #45 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by callire View Post
^ Ooh, are we now spitting out useless and random factiods aimed to poke holes in our ever-so-perfect democracy?

I'll go!

-The Bible supports slavery, stoning, and the existance of the unicorn!

I am sorry, I am confused with this response. Our current laws don't support slavery, stoning or the existence of a unicorn. Our 'republic' isn't perfect, and I don't believe I have stated anywhere I believe it is. There isn't a perfect one on the face of this earth.

as far as the finger pointing, Republicans vs Democrats, Christians vs Muslim and other religions, We will be able to find man abusing their power in every case, because no person is perfect.

once again, I am just glad I don't live in a society where vigilantism is allowed based on moral/religious beliefs.
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post #46 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecracker View Post
I'm glad I don't live in America.
Well I'm glad you don't if you don't want to. No disrespect intended.
It's too bad everybody isn't sitting around talking about this in person. It would be so much easier to grasp the intent of each persons' viewpoint.
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post #47 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenics View Post
I am sorry, I am confused with this response. Our current laws don't support slavery, stoning or the existence of a unicorn. Our 'republic' isn't perfect, and I don't believe I have stated anywhere I believe it is. There isn't a perfect one on the face of this earth.
Thank you for pointing out that The US is indeed a republic.
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post #48 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by begret View Post
It's too bad everybody isn't sitting around talking about this in person. It would be so much easier to grasp the intent of each persons' viewpoint.
true that
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post #49 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenics View Post
my humble apologies, I thought you were being facetious with me



I think a lot of stories are cleverly told, not all the facts given to us. You can hardly believe our news or political campaigns because they never tell you the whole story. We shouldn't vote for Mr. Smith because he voted down 'funding for abandaned babies', but don't tell you there was several attachments to the bill for anything from spray painting every building pink, or breeding red colored grass. (this is example only of course, I hope)

You are right, in that we never know the whole story, again I agree. On this story, from friends and college instructors, this story does not surprise me. I would be surprised if it was completely fabricated.

There is a story out of Tulsa OK right now, where a mob of people attacked the local police while they were negotiating with a man holed up in an evacuated apartment building, who happend to be accused of murder. The MOB threw rocks and SHOT at the police. That is literally all that is being reported. I want to know who made up that mob, why were they against the police, were they trying to protect the man accused of murder, what part of town was it in. How often are police blatantly attacked for doing their job? I am just impressed they didn't shoot back. ( I know Tulsa fairly well, and have a really good idea what part of town this happened in.)

My point was no matter what media outlet, we have to ask questions and try to get the perspective in every story. There are just some perspectives I tend to trust sooner than others.
Would that be the perspective that supports your own? (I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just generally curious)

I think that's only part of the problem. Along with perspective, the historical signifignace is crucial to really understanding an issue. Islamic "terrorists" are just one perfect example. Perspective alters or misleads the facts, but historical trends are quite possibly even more important to getting to the bottom of the issues.

For example, have you ever heard of the "If you were a terrorist, what American landmark/city would pick and why?" game (probably not, I think it's limited to my Islam and the Middle East class). I would pick Harper's Ferry. Why? Because A) The security is crap (it would be easy to sneak a bomb onto one of the trains) and B) it would send a huge message to the rest of the "islamic extremists" in the Middle East. By comparing their movement to John Brown's, they could manipulate the situation to gain support for their movement.
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post #50 of 307
4/15/07 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenics View Post
I am sorry, I am confused with this response. Our current laws don't support slavery, stoning or the existence of a unicorn. Our 'republic' isn't perfect, and I don't believe I have stated anywhere I believe it is. There isn't a perfect one on the face of this earth.

as far as the finger pointing, Republicans vs Democrats, Christians vs Muslim and other religions, We will be able to find man abusing their power in every case, because no person is perfect.

once again, I am just glad I don't live in a society where vigilantism is allowed based on moral/religious beliefs.
One, my post was sarcastic, and two, I was trying to point out that the Bible is not (and shouldn't) be our go to moral refrence guide. The Bible can be as easily manipulated as the Koran. To quote Inherit the Wind, "The Bible is a book, a good book, but not the only book." Granted, that was Intellegent Design vs. Darwin, but I think the basic message is still relevant.
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