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Should legal immigrants get food stamps? - Page 8  

post #176 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBucksT View Post
I completely agree. Our nation cannot afford this burden. The hard working citizens are taxed enough as it is.
Don't Legal immigrants pay things like income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes [if they own property], not to mention fuel their local economies with increased purchasing power, or am I missing something here? Is this because they might send money back to relatives in other countries? Should the US be a place to dictate how people spend their money based on ethnicity?

And if by "white" by definition has become 2nd-3rd generation Western Europeans, I think there are plenty of "white" or upper-bourgeois people who are a drain on the economy. The highest income tax brackets tend to be the ones who are capable of circumventing these laws through loopholes most often. What you guys are claiming is that one factor is responsible for a whole range of issues that have a number of complex issues involved, based on what seems like prejudice and racial discrimination, which is probably why a lot of people are getting upset.

Not to mention the younger generations, I mean, just turn on MTV and you could see some "white" drains on society. It's easy to make gross generalizations but that doesn't make it accurate.
post #177 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfrostyjosh View Post
i read one similar to this..Indian Givers: How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World by the same author. dunno if its the book youre referring to i imagine it is?

i remember that the author believes the indians greatest contribution was their slave labor in the gold and silver mines of the andean region. he argues that it was this gold and silver that changed the european economy from feudalism to capitalism. he also argues that the potato, a staple of the andes, was the main factor in the growth of europe and ultimately the soviet union. he goes as far as to say without the potato the soviet union wouldnt have been a world power..germany wouldnt have started 2 world wars... think about that!

a good introduction to some of their achievements though.
It is a different book, specifically looking at the impact of Native Americans on our current society. As I said, I just grabbed a few titles that I found handy in my notes. I didn't read the whole thing, but I did read several chapters. I was reading in the context of Postcolonial theory, so my focus was fairly tight, however, I know that the information in that book would support the information I supplied. Sevenkid asked for sources.

I don't necessarily agree with Weatherford's views, but he is certainly considered an expert in MesoAmerican history. Hence my using his book as one source in which my statements could be confirmed.
post #178 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenKid0505 View Post

Your comment was "ignorant" because you stated that farmers and garbage men have "crappy jobs that pay minimum wage".

Sigh. For someone who's in college, you clearly lack reading comprehension skills. The whole thrust of my comment was that farm workers (as in, not farmers who may own the land, but the workers that work that land for less than minimum wage, with no benefits) and garbage men are doing necessary and important work, which should be fairly compensated.

Clearly not everyone has the mental skills necessary to become a doctor or lawyer... You, for one, cannot read or, indeed quote correctly.
post #179 of 308
Casey - you are incredible! Though I can't agree with you on some of your Israel/Palestine commentary (us Jewish chicks have a remarkable tendency to be loyal to Israel while hoping that America burns in hell, bwahahahaha), your reasoning and arguments are brilliant!
post #180 of 308
Casey - you are incredible! Though I can't agree with you on some of your Israel/Palestine commentary (us Jewish chicks have a remarkable tendency to be loyal to Israel while hoping that America burns in hell, bwahahahaha), your reasoning and arguments are brilliant!
post #181 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by arriarri View Post
Casey - you are incredible! Though I can't agree with you on some of your Israel/Palestine commentary (us Jewish chicks have a remarkable tendency to be loyal to Israel while hoping that America burns in hell, bwahahahaha), your reasoning and arguments are brilliant!
Thanks!

Don't misread me on Israel/Palestine. The issue is far from cut and dry for me but I am not going to talk about it here in depth. My comments were only meant to provide a bit more context because the discussion had gotten very one sided.
post #182 of 308
Omg, I can't believe this thread made it through 8 pages. Now I have to go back 4 pages and read what I miss. I'm lazy, could someone summarize what i missed?
post #183 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by nxba View Post
Don't Legal immigrants pay things like income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes [if they own property], not to mention fuel their local economies with increased purchasing power, or am I missing something here? Is this because they might send money back to relatives in other countries? Should the US be a place to dictate how people spend their money based on ethnicity?

And if by "white" by definition has become 2nd-3rd generation Western Europeans, I think there are plenty of "white" or upper-bourgeois people who are a drain on the economy. The highest income tax brackets tend to be the ones who are capable of circumventing these laws through loopholes most often. What you guys are claiming is that one factor is responsible for a whole range of issues that have a number of complex issues involved, based on what seems like prejudice and racial discrimination, which is probably why a lot of people are getting upset.

Not to mention the younger generations, I mean, just turn on MTV and you could see some "white" drains on society. It's easy to make gross generalizations but that doesn't make it accurate.
When did I ever say this has to do with race? I have Cuban blood so if anyone is sympathetic to immigrants it is me. Take a look at what you said. "Don't legal immigrants pay things like income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes...etc." If someone is on food stamps, they obviously don't pay very many taxes let alone own a piece of property. This is not an insult to anyone just common sense. We are talking about the poorest immigrants here. Not the IT geniuses or doctors. Our nation is not an endless bank. People can't just keep reying on Uncle Sam to bail them out on everything.
post #184 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey60622 View Post
I negged some of your posts because they are racist lies worthy of a KKK rally, Zeitgeist.
Then pull them up and argue it, don't just make a judgment w/o backing it up. I doubt you'll be able to, most of the time you seem to skirt around the issue and bring up unrelated things.
post #185 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Then pull them up and argue it, don't just make a judgment w/o backing it up. I doubt you'll be able to, most of the time you seem to skirt around the issue and bring up unrelated things.
\

have you read one of her posts? she fried you dude.
post #186 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nxba View Post
The highest income tax brackets tend to be the ones who are capable of circumventing these laws through loopholes most often.
The highest tax bracket pays something like 50% of the taxes.
post #187 of 308
Sweetheart… you do realize that you’re not presenting any facts… correct? You’re doing a fantastic job of appealing to your fan base but simply ranting that I have no idea what a logical fallacy is doesn’t quite get you anywhere.

Anyone who truly places credence in IQ scores for determining one’s career is buying in far too much to a number. Of course there have been doctors with an IQ of 105… the test, while a good indicator of whether or not someone is truly a genius isn’t nearly an intellectual be all and end all.

Can you please provide a convincing reason as to why a single mother with three children would be working a minimum wage at Wal-Mart if not for at least one error she made with her life besides possible medical issues? I can certainly commiserate with a person that has an illness or a sick family member that has impeded their ability to be more powerful presence in the job market… but if there’s nothing seriously wrong with your health then obviously you’ve fucked up somewhere along the line. We’re not talking about earning $300,000+ a year here… this individual can not get a job paying over minimum wage, clearly she has done something to warrant this imposition.

I am all for legal immigrants who will contribute to the advancement of our society, but I feel that they should wait until they’re able to contribute before setting foot in this country. It’s very hard to determine who will and who won’t eventually become someone our country is proud to call a citizen, for every man who comes here with $5 in his pocket that goes on to become an executive officer we have far more people who move here poor and essentially stay that way forever. If you have somehow come up with a way in which to discern the future doctors from the future dead beats (this is, mind you, if all individuals that we’re discussing will be in need of federal assistance) I’d love to hear it.

Books are full of bias, you simply chose to read the ones which reflect your viewpoints and discuss them with people whose hearts bleed even more than yours. Congratulations!
post #188 of 308
Enough of this thread already. Let it rest.
post #189 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by arriarri View Post
Sigh. For someone who's in college, you clearly lack reading comprehension skills. The whole thrust of my comment was that farm workers (as in, not farmers who may own the land, but the workers that work that land for less than minimum wage, with no benefits) and garbage men are doing necessary and important work, which should be fairly compensated.

Clearly not everyone has the mental skills necessary to become a doctor or lawyer... You, for one, cannot read or, indeed quote correctly.
... you said that both farm workers and garbage men earn minimum wage ("We as a society always look down upon those who have crappy jobs that pay minimum wage - garbagemen, farm workers, etc..." ). Garbage men in my area earn about $75,000 a year which, while not a lot of money, is quite different than minimum wage (in some areas of the country these men with "crappy jobs" can earn over $80,000 a year). Farm workers may not earn substantial incomes (I'm fairly certain that they clear minimum wage) but it's a safe bet that a farm worker shares in whatever he has farmed. The benefits for being a farmer are a lot different than what a Wal-Mart employee has/must pay to have.

How is pointing out your error a sign of lacking comprehension skills? You stated that garbage men earn minimum wage, they don't, end of story.
post #190 of 308
Can this be moved to Drama?
post #191 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenKid0505 View Post
... you said that both farm workers and garbage men earn minimum wage ("We as a society always look down upon those who have crappy jobs that pay minimum wage - garbagemen, farm workers, etc..." ). Garbage men in my area earn about $75,000 a year which, while not a lot of money, is quite different than minimum wage (in some areas of the country these men with "crappy jobs" can earn over $80,000 a year). Farm workers may not earn substantial incomes (I'm fairly certain that they clear minimum wage) but it's a safe bet that a farm worker shares in whatever he has farmed. The benefits for being a farmer are a lot different than what a Wal-Mart employee has/must pay to have.
I do think it's sad that we often look down at the blue collar worker. But it is the blue collar worker that turned America into a world superpower.

I do not think a janitor who works 60 hours a week works any less hard than the office worker who also works 60 hours.

At the end of the day, I am not into these neo-con type policies because they are creating a danger that is going to turn both Europe and America into non-White third world countries but perhaps that is off the scope of this thread and out of the range of this discussion where, for some reason, people cheer on Whites becoming minorities in their own countries while nobody else does (in Asia, Africa, etc).
post #192 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by arriarri View Post
If a janitor, garbageman, or fisherman is just as necessary as a doctor, is it fair that the doctor makes 10 times as much?
Someone else has said it better.

Quote:
"In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention, receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him."
post #193 of 308
i knew it was just a matter of time until someone brought up the pyramid.
post #194 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenKid0505 View Post
Sweetheart… you do realize that you’re not presenting any facts… correct? You’re doing a fantastic job of appealing to your fan base but simply ranting that I have no idea what a logical fallacy is doesn’t quite get you anywhere.
Taking issue with ill-informed rambling does not mean I am ranting. You have no idea how to defend an argument because you do not understand how to properly form one. It is deeply disturbing to me that you present yourself as someone who has "earned" something by your education when it is so obviously lacking. Your understanding of argumentation, logic and rhetoric is a joke. Seriously, get a book and read up on it.

I have presented facts. I have studied migrancy.

You wanna talk about facts. Immigrant populations are different from those who intergenerationally impoverished in the United States. That is a FACT. They behave (in a sociological, group sense) in a different way from one another. That is a FACT.

You have extrapolated your understanding of those who exist in generational poverty in the US to immigrants. This is poor logic. It doesn't stand up to ten seconds of actual scrutiny.

Quote:
Anyone who truly places credence in IQ scores for determining one’s career is buying in far too much to a number. Of course there have been doctors with an IQ of 105… the test, while a good indicator of whether or not someone is truly a genius isn’t nearly an intellectual be all and end all.
IQ is one indicator of intelligence. And it is an important and reliable test. It is certainly not the only measure of intelligence, but you are kidding yourself if you think the highly competitive field of medicine gives someone an A for effort. Hard work counts, but in field that requires the ability to memorize vast amounts of information and be able to make use of it quickly and correctly, it will only get you so far.

Quote:
Can you please provide a convincing reason as to why a single mother with three children would be working a minimum wage at Wal-Mart if not for at least one error she made with her life besides possible medical issues? I can certainly commiserate with a person that has an illness or a sick family member that has impeded their ability to be more powerful presence in the job market… but if there’s nothing seriously wrong with your health then obviously you’ve fucked up somewhere along the line. We’re not talking about earning $300,000+ a year here… this individual can not get a job paying over minimum wage, clearly she has done something to warrant this imposition.
Have you ever been to a high school in a poor neighborhood? No, I didn't think so. Do some volunteer work and find out what those kids are dealing with. See the beaten down teachers and 15 year old text books that they have to share.

Yeah...you are soooooo right. It is her fault that she chose to be born into a country that ignores the education of the poor. It is her fault that because of this she never had anyone that acted as a poor role model. It is her fault that she tried to get the best job she could to feed her kids because she didn't want them to see her sitting around on welfare. It is her fault that Walmart rakes in cash by the truckload while treating their employees like shit.

Is what I am saying emotional? F**k yeah it is. Is it true? Without a doubt. But go ahead. Keep blaming our single Walmart mom for not having the good sense to be born rich and white.

Quote:
I am all for legal immigrants who will contribute to the advancement of our society, but I feel that they should wait until they’re able to contribute before setting foot in this country. It’s very hard to determine who will and who won’t eventually become someone our country is proud to call a citizen, for every man who comes here with $5 in his pocket that goes on to become an executive officer we have far more people who move here poor and essentially stay that way forever. If you have somehow come up with a way in which to discern the future doctors from the future dead beats (this is, mind you, if all individuals that we’re discussing will be in need of federal assistance) I’d love to hear it.
Immigrants from other countries are used to dealing with far less than most Americans can concieve of. Do me a favor and start talking to cab drivers and convenience store workers. You will find that they have more education than you think. They are here working because they can make more money being a cab driver here than they can being an engineer in their home country (I have met more than one cab driver who was a university-educated engineer). They might have only had $5 in their pocket, but they came here for a better life and found it.

Where are your immigrants who move here legally and go on welfare forever? Where? Immigrant populations are not accustomed to government support. In fact, many refuse it because of cultural differences. You make the assumption that because there are problems in this country stemming from generational poverty that have lead to vast abuses of the welfare system that immigrants will do the same. What you are ignoring is that in the case of generational poverty in the US, an individual is surrounded by the welfare state and has no view of any other way of life. An immigrant does not have that experience and therefore will not treat the welfare state in the same way.

Quote:
Books are full of bias, you simply chose to read the ones which reflect your viewpoints and discuss them with people whose hearts bleed even more than yours. Congratulations!
Actually, I have read plenty of books I disagree with. I have respect for intelligent arguments even when I do not agree with them. I have very little respect for someone who talks without understanding their subject and shows little ability to form a coherent argument.
post #195 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey60622 View Post
Thanks!

Don't misread me on Israel/Palestine. The issue is far from cut and dry for me but I am not going to talk about it here in depth. My comments were only meant to provide a bit more context because the discussion had gotten very one sided.

As long as I can spank you, both those countries can go to hell for all I care
post #196 of 308
fanbase lol. i think it's more like whipping some people up into shape or training them dr. pavlov style. i love how the posts in the beginning of the thread have evolved from senseless provocation into something understandable later in this thread.
post #197 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by arriarri View Post
As long as I can spank you, both those countries can go to hell for all I care
Yay! Spanking!
post #198 of 308
And, finally, this whole argument is ridiculous. Speaking from a purely economic point of view, it's silly to bitch and moan about food stamps and aid to the poor. As several people have pointed out already, it's a very tiny portion of your taxes that go toward domestic and foreign aid. Again, from an economic point of view, you'd be better off spending your time studying hard so that you can become another privileged asshole, and not bitching about the $0.03 that was taken off your paycheck (indeed, if you even worked a day in your life!) to feed someone less fortunate than you.

To criticize the hard-working poor from the height of your socio-economic status (achieved by your parents' labors, not by yours) on an online forum is probably one of the least honorable things you can do.


I'd like to see Sevenkid or Zeitgeist stand up to a coal miner or a factory worker, or a *gasp* legal immigrant who has escaped genocide in his own country and tell them, to their face, that their ridiculously low salary is due to the wrong decisions they've made along the way, and that they're inferior to the average college-educated schmuck who's had everything handed to him on a silver platter simply because he was fortunate enough to be born into a family that could afford to give it to him.
post #199 of 308
You’re really grasping for straws here, huh? No where did I state that all immigrants are the same as natural born citizens who have lived in poverty for several generations. Are there similarities between those who move here and expect the government to provide for them and those who have lived here for hundreds of years and expect the government to provide for them? Of course there are.

The difference in mental capacity between someone with an IQ of 105 and someone with an IQ of 130, while existent, isn’t even close to night and day. A person with an IQ of 105 who chooses to study hard enough can certainly attain enough knowledge to become a physician, it’s rather naïve of you to think otherwise.

You’re right, poor kids have a lot more to overcome than rich kids in order to be successful… but does that mean we can just put all of the blame on our government for not caring enough about them? I certainly agree that there can be a lot more done to help the education of inner city youth but shoddy textbooks aren’t an excuse for becoming a crackhead. There are individuals who don’t choose to become wrapped up in the whole “inner city” scene… if they can keep their heads in the game and persevere then there’s no reason that their classmates can’t do the same with a little hard work.

Whose fault is it that this poor woman chose to have children? Why bring a life into this world if you’re incapable of providing for it? Wal-Mart is a corporation plain and simple, it’s in their best interest to be more concerned with the bottom line than the personal lives of their employees. You can’t fault a corporate mega-giant for choosing to pay a person minimum wage in order to maximize profits.

If a person can come here and make a life for themselves… good for them. This is the land of opportunity and nothing should make us more proud than success stories like that. It’s when these people come here and leech off of the government, however, that truly irks me. America is graciously giving you the chance to increase your earnings potential and better your life but you still turn around and ask for handouts? I admire those who refuse government support due to cultural differences, they know that it’s ludicrous to ask for more from the nation who just gave you so much. I have no problems with legal immigrants so long as they pay taxes and don’t ask for a single handout (nothing against immigrants, of course, I feel the same about every citizen).

Your argument is formulated almost entirely of criticisms of my style of arguing as opposed to sound logic. Painting me as an uneducated and out of touch person doesn’t do much to bolster your side of the discussion.
post #200 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey60622 View Post
Yay! Spanking!

Purrrr....



And, in honor of some of the more er... nationalistic opinions voiced on this thread...


Cats That Look Like Hitler!

hilarious.
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